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	<title>Comments on: l&#8217;étincelle expelled from lutte ouvrière</title>
	<atom:link href="http://thecommune.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/letincelle-expelled-from-lutte-ouvriere/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://thecommune.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/letincelle-expelled-from-lutte-ouvriere/</link>
	<description>for workers' self-management and communism from below</description>
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		<title>By: internationalcommunist</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/letincelle-expelled-from-lutte-ouvriere/#comment-704</link>
		<dc:creator>internationalcommunist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.wordpress.com/?p=787#comment-704</guid>
		<description>&quot;I may be wrong but L’Etincelle did not criticize the alliance with the CP but with the SP, which is not exactly the same given the social composition of the SP and its almost non existent links with the working class, as opposed to the decaying CP, which still has some working class militants.&quot;

That&#039;s true, but of course if you want to work with the CP you&#039;ll struggle to separate them from the SP, since they make so many electoral pacts. 

I can see now that the phrase used in the article - &quot;objections to running joint electoral lists with the Parti Socialiste and Parti Communiste Français&quot; - is ambiguously worded - the point is that L&#039;Étincelle were critical of LO tailing the &quot;union of the left&quot; which comprises of both the CP and SP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I may be wrong but L’Etincelle did not criticize the alliance with the CP but with the SP, which is not exactly the same given the social composition of the SP and its almost non existent links with the working class, as opposed to the decaying CP, which still has some working class militants.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s true, but of course if you want to work with the CP you&#8217;ll struggle to separate them from the SP, since they make so many electoral pacts. </p>
<p>I can see now that the phrase used in the article &#8211; &#8220;objections to running joint electoral lists with the Parti Socialiste and Parti Communiste Français&#8221; &#8211; is ambiguously worded &#8211; the point is that L&#8217;Étincelle were critical of LO tailing the &#8220;union of the left&#8221; which comprises of both the CP and SP.</p>
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		<title>By: yvescoleman50</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/letincelle-expelled-from-lutte-ouvriere/#comment-703</link>
		<dc:creator>yvescoleman50</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.wordpress.com/?p=787#comment-703</guid>
		<description>I may be wrong but L&#039;Etincelle did not criticize the alliance with the CP but with the SP, which is not exactly the same given the social composition of the SP and its almost non existent links with the working class, as opposed to the decaying CP, which still has some working class militants.

Another point.

Basically l&#039;Etincelle, during all these years, has not defined positions which are very different from LO. As most people who are impressed by LO&#039;s claim to have a trotskyist-proletarian line (as I was 34 years ago) they have not been able to define a separate original position on most political questions. The fact that they still cling to trotskyism, leninism, etc., has not enabled them to appear as very different from the majority even if they were less sectarian and more sensitive to new movements. 
We have had the same kind of experience with Combat communiste in 1974, even if we were &quot;state caps&quot; and had some  more original positions on the trade unions and socialist propaganda, we were seen by most people as just a microscopic LO. So most good working class militants prefer not to loose time in small tendencies or small groups.
that&#039;s an unpleasant reality but it has to be faced.
The fact that the LCR may grow (it remains to be seen if they are effectively growing) is linked to the fact that they want to recruit people who not only are not attracted by trotskyism and marxism and leninism and all that &quot;old&quot; stuff, but also people who are really repelled by all that. Read the discussion forums of the new NPA or the interviews published in the last Critique communiste from young militants (not the Old Guard or those coming from other groups) and you will have a flavour of their ideology: basically the average no global-reformist stuff &quot;let&#039;s share the wealth&quot;, they all say.
So here is the dilemma: you go on trying to build a leninist trotskyist sect or you build a very large and confused party which will spend a lot of time in electoral politics as Besancenot has already announced and as LO and then the LCR have been doing for many years with very small results, apart from very important state subsidies (each vote gives you 1,5 €)
A very grey perspective, indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may be wrong but L&#8217;Etincelle did not criticize the alliance with the CP but with the SP, which is not exactly the same given the social composition of the SP and its almost non existent links with the working class, as opposed to the decaying CP, which still has some working class militants.</p>
<p>Another point.</p>
<p>Basically l&#8217;Etincelle, during all these years, has not defined positions which are very different from LO. As most people who are impressed by LO&#8217;s claim to have a trotskyist-proletarian line (as I was 34 years ago) they have not been able to define a separate original position on most political questions. The fact that they still cling to trotskyism, leninism, etc., has not enabled them to appear as very different from the majority even if they were less sectarian and more sensitive to new movements.<br />
We have had the same kind of experience with Combat communiste in 1974, even if we were &#8220;state caps&#8221; and had some  more original positions on the trade unions and socialist propaganda, we were seen by most people as just a microscopic LO. So most good working class militants prefer not to loose time in small tendencies or small groups.<br />
that&#8217;s an unpleasant reality but it has to be faced.<br />
The fact that the LCR may grow (it remains to be seen if they are effectively growing) is linked to the fact that they want to recruit people who not only are not attracted by trotskyism and marxism and leninism and all that &#8220;old&#8221; stuff, but also people who are really repelled by all that. Read the discussion forums of the new NPA or the interviews published in the last Critique communiste from young militants (not the Old Guard or those coming from other groups) and you will have a flavour of their ideology: basically the average no global-reformist stuff &#8220;let&#8217;s share the wealth&#8221;, they all say.<br />
So here is the dilemma: you go on trying to build a leninist trotskyist sect or you build a very large and confused party which will spend a lot of time in electoral politics as Besancenot has already announced and as LO and then the LCR have been doing for many years with very small results, apart from very important state subsidies (each vote gives you 1,5 €)<br />
A very grey perspective, indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/letincelle-expelled-from-lutte-ouvriere/#comment-679</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2008 08:13:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.wordpress.com/?p=787#comment-679</guid>
		<description>There is a grotesque element to LO&#039;s criticism of L&#039;Etincelle as it &quot;it represents a completely independent and autonomous organisation&quot;. No wonder when the supporters of L&#039;Etincelle were seperated from the majority of LO and forced to participate in cells consisting solely of minority members of the organisation. A travesty of the Leninism that LO claims to adhere to.

Small wonder that Barta disavowed LO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a grotesque element to LO&#8217;s criticism of L&#8217;Etincelle as it &#8220;it represents a completely independent and autonomous organisation&#8221;. No wonder when the supporters of L&#8217;Etincelle were seperated from the majority of LO and forced to participate in cells consisting solely of minority members of the organisation. A travesty of the Leninism that LO claims to adhere to.</p>
<p>Small wonder that Barta disavowed LO.</p>
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		<title>By: davidbroder</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/letincelle-expelled-from-lutte-ouvriere/#comment-667</link>
		<dc:creator>davidbroder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:39:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.wordpress.com/?p=787#comment-667</guid>
		<description>Indeed: because of their refusal to &quot;add&quot; anything to Trotsky&#039;s holy writ, not only do they insist that the USSR was always a workers&#039; state (and Russia continued to be after 1991 - which Ted Grant&#039;s group similarly claimed until about 1998) but also that the mini-USSRs created in Eastern Europe after WWII were state capitalist, despite the fact that they had economic systems, relations of production and political mechanisms nearly identical to those of the &quot;workers&#039; state&quot; in the USSR.

In a perverse way and within its own crazy logic this does make sense - their claim that the USSR was a workers&#039; state (albeit degenerated) even after the soviets and all vestiges of working-class organisation were smashed is partly based on the idea of the &quot;collective memory&quot; of the revolution rather than anything to do with the economic system... so why should that not continue after 1991? The working class had lost power many decades beforehand anyway...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed: because of their refusal to &#8220;add&#8221; anything to Trotsky&#8217;s holy writ, not only do they insist that the USSR was always a workers&#8217; state (and Russia continued to be after 1991 &#8211; which Ted Grant&#8217;s group similarly claimed until about 1998) but also that the mini-USSRs created in Eastern Europe after WWII were state capitalist, despite the fact that they had economic systems, relations of production and political mechanisms nearly identical to those of the &#8220;workers&#8217; state&#8221; in the USSR.</p>
<p>In a perverse way and within its own crazy logic this does make sense &#8211; their claim that the USSR was a workers&#8217; state (albeit degenerated) even after the soviets and all vestiges of working-class organisation were smashed is partly based on the idea of the &#8220;collective memory&#8221; of the revolution rather than anything to do with the economic system&#8230; so why should that not continue after 1991? The working class had lost power many decades beforehand anyway&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: lucien</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/letincelle-expelled-from-lutte-ouvriere/#comment-666</link>
		<dc:creator>lucien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.wordpress.com/?p=787#comment-666</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;L&#039;étincelle&lt;/em&gt; asks for a Communist and Trotskyite display to enter in NPA (LCR&#039;s new party project). This group is not &quot;less &quot; Trotskyite than the majority of LO, but less ideologically delimited than LO on the question of the &quot;working state &quot; (LO considering that Russia is a working state after the fall of USSR remained!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>L&#8217;étincelle</em> asks for a Communist and Trotskyite display to enter in NPA (LCR&#8217;s new party project). This group is not &#8220;less &#8221; Trotskyite than the majority of LO, but less ideologically delimited than LO on the question of the &#8220;working state &#8221; (LO considering that Russia is a working state after the fall of USSR remained!)</p>
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